Thanks for writing this response. I think we agree about a lot, while emphasising different things. I want to emphasise that intelligence is only one contributor to moral worth, which can be outweighed by other considerations. I also want to emphasise that there's nothing special about intelligence. For example, one could write similar articles on why people with higher conscientiousness or pro-sociality have greater moral worth. Meanwhile, you want to emphasise that intelligence is an important contributor to moral worth, and we shouldn't downplay that.
The idea that there's "nothing special about intelligence" is something I would disagree with. Intelligence *is* what makes us special. It's also the basis of virtually everything else that's valuable (intrinsically or instrumentally). Prosociality might be the only other trait that you could argue is comparable in importance to intelligence. But while I think that, all else being equal, more intelligence is better, I don't think that's true of prosociality. Pathological altruism isn't desirable. A psychopath like Imre Lakatos was more valuable than an average do-gooder. Traits like conscientiousness may have little or no intrinsic value at all.
Okay, so we don't agree entirely. Surely in any species whose members cooperate, harder-working individuals are more valuable? The highly intelligent alcoholic is surely less valuable than the individual of moderate intelligence who works hard to support his family. And even if you're right that more pro-sociality isn't always better, one could simply specify that intelligence has a monotonic relationship with moral worth, while pro-sociality has a non-monotonic relationship. It would still be true that, for many comparisons of individuals with different levels of pro-sociality, the one with higher pro-sociality would have greater moral worth – all else being equal.
An alcoholic, especially an intelligent one, may accomplish quite a bit. Few are drunk all the time. True such an individual would accomplish more if he didn’t drink.
But how can you know it to be necessarily true? What if alcohol usage boosts some people's creativity and then they remember ideas they had when they're sober or what if the periodic usage even increases their creativity when their sober? While for some people its the opposite. And for others it nothing. And for others its something else. I've met so many people that don't fit into any the of the bins that author's like the one who writes this page have (and yes, I know he does this for an income source and his personal opinions are probably far more nuanced and deeper) fitted. Broad sweeping generalizations on topics such as this are typically wrong, and any one detailed plan to implement across all of humanity for something like this is likely to be extremely ill conceived.
I'm sorry to read about your daughter's condition, I hope I didn't inadvertently offend with my comment due to my ignorance of the matter.
Yes, I have encountered many different kinds of people, good and ill, many of whom smart in various ways or creative in various ways, and some who had the rare mixture of both; and across these groups I've met people for whom the effects are the effects are different. And I've met enough to feel that I can say with a reasonably high degree of confidence that there is indeed variability.
That entirely depends on your definition of work and what can actually be considered as desirable work.
I tend to think it is one problem of our modern civilization, where many do work for the sake of work, of more correctly, they do work to get money to buy stuff they don't really need but give them a more desirable position in the social ladder/order (status).
But that's only at the surface level, in practice their individual worth doesn't change much, and soon enough they figure out they became desirable only for their accumulation of wealth and it rarely ends well for them (in a psychological way).
I tend to think it is actually much harder to not do anything and it is extremely hard for people to figure out where they should be focusing their ressource on (work time included).
"Hard work is inherently good" tends to be the dogma of our current society (comes from Christianism as fas a I can tell) but it becomes more and more questionnable if that is actually reasonable.
We are now dealing with many problems created by having too many people working hard to consume yet more stuff.
Poverty has almost disappeared in theory but in practice inequalities have never been worse so it is basically the same but with less material struggle.
So, I think you ought to look beyond appearances and I don't think you could find any intelligent person not doing any kind of work anyway.
And they are much more valuable because of how they multiply the work output, you can readily observe this when a similar task is given to 2 individuals of different intelligence: I can guarantee you that the more intelligent one will figure out a way to do it better, faster and potentially with less ressources.
"But while I think that, all else being equal, more intelligence is better, I don't think that's true of prosociality."
So among two equally psychopathic/anti-social individuals, you would prefer the intelligent one over the dull one? You don't realize that the harmful externalities of the dull psychopath are much more likely to be self-contained than that of the intelligent psychopath, who can oversee the immiseration and murder of millions of people? By simply opening a history book, you would understand that not a single century has gone by without this "extreme edge case" playing out.
Additionally, the only reason higher prosociality stops being positive at the right tail is because of the more antisocial individuals or groups who may try to exploit their goodwill. That does not mean that high prosociality is inherently bad. Rather, it's a strong negative indictment of human antisociality, that it may imperil the lives of the few saints the world desperately needs and is in short supply of.
All else being equal, between a more prosocial human race and a more intelligent human race I would 100% choose the more prosocial human race. The human experience would simply be much more pleasant with the former.
I would argue that the human capacity for symbolic thought was the precursor to abstract intelligence & it's that that made us unique.
Clearly, the idea of morality is a human universal which is finessed by genetic relatedness not group selection?
I'm confused about what your overall point is. Is this an argument for top down social engineering over the invisible hand of evolution?
All things are not equal and variation is the engine of evolution. We cannot predict which individuals will be of higher value to the collective IQ of a society however - if we were into social engineering - and true genius is impossible to predict.
Aren't universal moral laws ultimate adaptations to protect kith and kin which are then proximately rationalised? Both discovered in human nature and then individually posited? Anyone?
Right? Exactly. I just saw a Triggernometry ep where KK was questioning Cofnas: "So you just want LESS DEI"? Cofnas said no. When talking about Meritocracy v Representation KK asked Cofnas multiple times why not 100% "Meritocracy"? Cofnas refused to go there, and it was genuinely baffling (esp wrt his hereditarian position). Cofnas kinda said it would not be accepted, said there needs to be some Representation. The episode was ending and I don't subscribe to be aware of what may have been said said in the members only discussion.
Since many people specifically deny that intelligence correlates with human worth, in whatever sense, it makes sense to forcefully argue that this trait in particular does correlate with worth. I think the most obvious (negative) correlate is bad, violent behavior. So when I make this kind of argument, I begin with that one. No one thinks that we should save a murderer over a child if forced to choose.
"No one thinks that we should save a murderer over a child if forced to choose"
But many people do think this. It happens in war, genocide, anywhere that certain people have an opportunity to get away with it. If the culture allows, the psychopaths rise. That's the dilemma.
Wouldn't it rather be what one does with that intelligence? Which would include different traits/variables. Or are we saying just intelligence alone (how much intelligence - 1 or 2 standard deviations?) is statistically significant?
Eugenio Proto's study says intelligent people are socially competent. If moral worth is conditional on favourable social traits, then intelligent people are morally superior
I consider myself a fairly cultured recluse if somewhat middle brow who much prefers her own company with the exception of a few long term very close friends - I do not like being among crowds at all and hate large noisy social events. I do not consider myself socially competent - I hate small talk.
Does this mean I am of low intelligence or just introverted?
What's intelligent here? Average IQ, or 1/2/3 sd's over? Many of our most intelligent people are on the autism spectrum, noted for the symptom of social disfunction.
Wonderful post. I always like it when someone points to something I've always taken for granted but perhaps shouldn't have. Such things remain invisible to me until someone, in this case you, point them out.
Incidentally, why has average Japanese IQ gone up in the last decades?
The Flynn effect refers to the large increase in IQ scores across the world in the 20th century. It was probably driven mostly by education, and to a lesser extent by better nutrition and medical care.
Ah, I see. I was thinking of Ed Dutton's idea that in the West we have been getting, on average, stupider since the Industrial Revolution due to the fact that pretty much everyone nowadays survives, rather than just the healthiest, and therefore the most intelligent, since health and intelligence are correlated. I was wondering how Japan had bucked that dysgenic trend but maybe I was conflating intelligence with IQ scores. Or maybe Ed Dutton is simply wrong.
1) Nathan rejects moral realism in favor of the idea that morality is socially determined. He then moves on to a discussion of "human worth" without answering the charge that intelligence has no "moral worth"; I think implicitly Nathan concedes that since the median person thinks intelligence has no "moral worth" and morality is socially determined, then intelligence has no "moral worth." So we need to chalk that one up as a win for Murray and Carl.
2A) In order to operationalize the notion of "human worth," Nathan splits his definition into intrinsic and instrumental components. Part of the intrinsic component is "our superior capacity to understand, contemplate, plan, have an identity, and (as Kershnar highlights) exercise autonomy." This is just transparently begging the question! I suppose one way to win a debate about whether intelligence contributes to human worth is to just say "I (and least one other person) personally define human worth as intelligence," but it's not convincing, and in this case defies common usage.
2B) The argument is further confused because the only defense of the definition that intelligence makes humans more intrinsically valuable, we have, "The more intelligence you have, the greater your potential to manifest what is intrinsically valuable." But this is transparently only a defense of why intelligence is *instrumentally* valuable, not intrinsically valuable!
2C) If, as Nathan believes, there is no such thing as mind-independent "moral worth," there is probably no such thing as mind-independent "human worth." Nathan agrees that there is "no objective standard that tells us how to weigh different values." So we return to the subjective, which again favors Murray and Carl.
I borrow the illustrative example of the drowning people: as Nathan notes, commonsense morality says to save women, children, and parents in different scenarios, the imperative action implictly revealing their greater (subejctive) "human worth." But there is no commonsense morality rule that says to save the smarter person. Nathan simply posits that it "should" be part of our calculation. But if the way to determine human worth is subjective and not mind-independent, and the median person does not include intelligence as part of her calculation, then intelligence is not a component of "human worth."
3) I think the argument that intelligence instrumentally contributes to human worth is unassailable, but this does not imply intelligence actually *is* a component of human worth. To illustrate, suppose you come home and discover the cure for cancer taped to your refridgerator, which you excitedly share with the world. By sharing the cure and not throwing it away, you have contributed more to human welfare than any single person in history. But did possession of the cure, in and of itself, contribute to your human worth? Did it make you superior in any way? No, the only thing that made you a worthy human was the choice to share it with the world. Simply possessing the cure is certainly *instrumentally* valuable, but it does not contribute to your "human worth", in the way we would typically think about it.
Therefore, I argue that possessing something that is *instrumentally* valuable does not add to human worth unless you took actions to obtain it. Since there are basically no actions you can take to improve your general intelligence (dual n-back training?), general intelligence does not make you more worthy as a human.
Love you Nathan, but I disagree with your reasoning.
PS I agree most with the concluding message: "You were born into the natural aristocracy. You have an obligation to strive for the greatness of which you are capable." But this is not a repudiation of Christian morality, but a restatement! Jesus famously said, "To whom much is given, much will be required" (Luke 12:48). The Parable of the Talents illustrates the idea of people possessing different endowments. Saint Peter and the Apostle Paul emphasize using "gifts that differ according to the grace given to us" (Romans 12:6). The Christian notion is that inequality is natural, but each person is expected to make the most of what they have been given.
Yes -- your "PS " is important here, because it highlights one of the biggest misunderstandings afoot today -- I find it everywhere from the far left to the far right and points inbetween -- namely: that Christianity is egalitarianism. Originally, historically, it was precisely the opposite.
I think the problem here stems from the idea of *individual* moral worth.
Individual moral decisions have a way of netting each other out in large groups over long time periods. For every villain there is a hero. For everyone that uses their intelligence for evil there is one that uses it for good. For every high IQ society that goes crazy during WWII we have a post war economic miracle.
Low IQ societies by contrast just can't keep the lights on, whatever heroes or villains there might be within.
Most of the benefits (or detriments) or intelligence come from *Hive Mind*. It's the high IQ society we are striving for. That will assure that we tend to have more heroes then villains and that we tend to have more prosperous outcomes then not.
Another way of looking at it would be Gregory Clark's "The Son Also Rises". He notes that while smart families often have bad individuals within them, as an extended family unit they tend to have high value on average.
You don't deny a low IQ person citizenship because you have some complex understanding of their individual moral worth. You just know that letting in lots of low IQ people is bad for society, and that since you can't look into the soul of every applicant and all their descendants you just have to judge as a group based on broad criteria.
Charles is naturally approaching this from the libertarian individualistic perspective. It's not individual outcomes and individual morality we are debating though, but the statistical inevitabilities from large n-counts with certain characteristics.
"For every high IQ society that goes crazy during WWII". You're saying this from a position of not contemplating that you or your family could be such flotsam.
Well, there are plenty of other choices. You picked two strange ones. The Japanese at this time had been brainwashed for two generations to hate the Chinese and think it was their God given right to seize territory and commit atrocities carte blanche. They joined the Rome-Berlin axis to form the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo axis and used their youth literally as cannon fodder in the kamikaze. The Congo was a colony of Belgium in 1940 (The Belgian Congo) and was, like Belgium, neutral. It only became independent in 1960. By any standard, the Belgian Congo was a safer place to be in 1940 compared to Japan who was soon to have two atomic bombs dropped on it and surrender to the allies. Japan's high IQ (if it had it at the time) was no barrier to it being utterly stupid.
I picked an example of one of the worst times and places for a high IQ society and compared it to a low IQ society that wasn't involved in WWII.
Whatever troubles Japanese had to suffer through in the 1940s, they would soon become a first world country where people live comfortable fulfilling lives. Meanwhile, the Congo remained a third world hellhole.
High IQ societies retain the potential for improvement, and most manage to get there in time. Low IQ societies have no potential, they can never improve and their standard of living relies entirely on how much high IQ societies are willing to pay for their natural resources or tourist beaches and they usually squander what little they get from that.
“Yet, when it comes to “human worth,” in my view, Motz ranks among the elites. He is far superior to Chris Langan—the conspiracy theorist and philosophy crackpot who supposedly has the highest IQ in the world.”
Or perhaps you are within one SD of Motz’s IQ, which makes him comprehensible to you, whereas Langen seems like a “crackpot” much like you’d seem like a crackpot to, say, the 77% who can’t read a bus schedule.
I still don't get that "it's wrong to shoot random people for fun" is a truth of logic. It is a claim about what is morally right, and what is morally right is not a truth of logic, unless you are some kind of strong realist in the Platonic sense.
This conundrum over the moral worth of people is perhaps why we got the "scientific" consensus that there are no important differences between groups and the denial about the heritability of intelligence. After the horrors of the second world war, it was easier to just lie and say that all groups are exactly the same in all socially valuable traits, and that education can increase intelligence rather than tackle an issue with no easy answer, especially when the religious foundations for belief in equal human worth were quickly vanishing.
Prominent intellectuals who are normally curious about most things suddenly become very disinterested or scientifically illiterate when the discussion turns to intelligence differences, and especially groups differences. In my opinion that is because they party because don't have an answer to the question of whether smart people are superior that is palatable to them.
We should remember though that high intelligence is a trait that is advantageous in our CURRENT post-industrial environment, but environments change. AI may prove to be much more competent than humans at cognitively demanding tasks, and available to anyone with a smartphone, thus rendering that advantage moot. The future environment may reward other traits instead of intelligence (beauty, sense of humor, work ethic). Perhaps in a few years I will be unemployed and my plumber will be making a fortune.
The only WW2 combatant that denied genetic intelligence difference was Stalin. This denial did nothing to limit his murdering.
Even the most famous example, Hitler, didn’t actually know much about intelligence (or much else). It’s not clear that the Nazies even prized intelligence all that much. The Nazi eugenics programs didn’t mention intelligence outside the elimination of clinically retarded individuals, where is was one among many disabilities. The ideal Nazi man doesn’t appear to emphasize intelligence in any way. If anything within the Volk Nazi-ism took on a rather egalitarian nature that valorized the average man quite a bit. The nazies didn’t say that intelligent Germans were “worth” more then less intelligent Germans.
P.S. if you ever became unemployed due to AI you would simply learn to become a plumber and probably outcompete your current plumber. Smart people can learn to do plumbing, it’s not rocket science.
A provocative argument. I’m new to this debate, but think Carl has the stronger case.
It seems like you’re essentially equating worth with accomplishment. Yes, smarter people can get things done better, in the current environment. Yet, just a few thousand years ago, physical fitness mattered much more than it does now, and I wonder how many of the geniuses you cited would have been able to even survive. There’s probably a threshold level of intelligence to thrive regardless of circumstances, but I bet it’s not very far above the mean.
And you didn’t really refute the notion that “accomplishment” can be good (life-saving medicine) or bad (concentration camps). I’m interested to read the book about national IQ differences you referenced. Japan went from kamikaze pilots and the rape of Nanking to its current state of prosperity and peacefulness apparently without any changes to the country’s average IQ. China is one of the most oppressive regimes out there but has a higher average IQ. And I certainly wouldn’t want to live in Belarus, also above average. Again, countries may need a threshold level of average intelligence as a pre-condition for national success, but it doesn’t look sufficient.
I wrote: "Part of what makes humans more intrinsically valuable than other animals is our superior capacity to understand, contemplate, plan, have an identity, and (as Kershnar highlights) exercise autonomy....There can even be greatness in failure." I don't see how this is, as you say, "essentially equating worth with accomplishment."
"And you didn’t really refute the notion that 'accomplishment' can be good (life-saving medicine) or bad (concentration camps)." - I don't "refute" this because there's nothing to refute. As I say, "Any instrument can be used for bad purposes."
Incidentally, the average IQ of Japan has increased substantially over the past several decades. More important, IQ is not the only relevant factor. Communism --> bad outcomes. Check out Garett Jones's book Hive Mind.
Do we have a superior capacity to understand, contemplate & plan than other animals? Identify is tricky, as is autonomy. Do we understand them sufficiently?
I'm more leaning towards our capacity for symbolic thought is the most unique element of human abstract intelligence, which leads to all other higher cognitive functions.
Very few nonhuman animals can recognize themselves in a mirror. Learning how to chew the bark off a twig and stick it in a termite mound pushes chimpanzee intelligence to the limit. Of course we can never know for sure what goes on in the mind of an animal. But I think it's clear that the capacity of the *average* human to have an identity, understand, contemplate, and plan is qualitatively different from, and superior to, that of any other species.
Thanks for responding. How is there ever greatness in failure? Usually, it's failure on the path to accomplishment, i.e. a mistake that leads to a discovery or lesson. That's not failure.
It seems that you're arguing that intelligence makes someone more valuable because they have a higher probability of doing valuable things (being moral, contributing to society, etc...); however, as Noah Carl writes, intelligence is only one contributor to moral worth, as, for example, someone with high intelligence but no altruism is pretty harmful. So I think that the only way to conceptualize someone's worth is by taking in all the relevant factors, rather than just prizing intelligence.
Also, it should be noted that highly intelligent people could often be considered extremely harmful/unvaluable under different frameworks. For example, you note that Einstein had high human worth because he possessed and then used his intelligence to make great discoveries in physics. Yet his thinking is responsible for the creation of the atomic bomb, whereas an ordinary human is not culpable in that way. By these standards, then, Einstein is a human of low worth.
>“Moral worth correlates with intelligence (and other traits).” Kershnar argues that “intrinsic moral value is proportional to autonomy,” which in turn is “proportional to intelligence.” I claim: “Less intelligent people are inferior...in some respect. Everyone has ‘human dignity’, but if two people are drowning and I can save one I’d consider relative intelligence (among other things).”
I can see smart people holding to this self-serving philosophy until machines substantially outstrip them in intelligence. Then, instead of surrendering their superior moral worth to machines, they’ll elevate some other quality machines lack to be the key marker of moral worth.
I ‘ve never noticed smarter people being more ethical than less intelligent people. They are, however, far better at concealing/normalizing their corrupt behavior.
>In my view, moral realism is an illusion. Our intuitions about right and wrong are the product of morally blind evolutionary and cultural forces.
But moral realism only says that Moral truths exist, not that out intuitions are reliable.
>The institution of morality, when stripped of illusions, serves a useful function.
OK. But it's quite plausible that treating people as being of equal worth serves a useful function -- for instance, they are more likely to act co-operatively if they have guarantees that they are not going to be thrown under the bus a as worthless person.
>“equal under the law” (a tautology),
Obviously not, since explicitly unequal systems used to exist. Romans slaves could be legally tortured, citizens not. British aristocrats could only be convicted by their "peers" -- other aristocrats. Etc, etc.
But... it literally tells you it will be an hour between busses on Saturday?
Are people skipping to the section and going straight to the times without reading? Did I miss something? Surely I'm missing something, there's no way nearly 8 out of 10 people can't get this right.
I think I'll feel better if I got it wrong too and it isn't actually that simple.
Yes that's what they are doing, and it's rational to do so. I'm sure 80% of people get it wrong and no that doesn't mean they are dumb or don't know how to use a bus timetable.
It's not smart of Cofnas to present this test question as if it says something profound about the distribution of intelligence. In fact all it says is that whoever designed the bus schedule is crap at their job (probably a government employee...), and whoever selected this question for NALS didn't do a great job either, and most people are not expecting to have to interpret such a badly designed timetable.
The most obvious and intuitive way to interpret this schedule is that you will have to wait half an hour. If you pay close attention to the question, AND read the excessively verbose fine print at the top AND/OR read the extra information at the very opposite end of the page after successfully ignoring all the other irrelevant data that scan forces on you, then you will notice that the bus in half an hour doesn't run on Saturday and therefore you'll actually have to wait an hour. Almost certainly the reason so many people fail is not that they can't "reliably" read bus timetables (Cofnas' absurd interpretation) but that they say the answer is 30 minutes.
It's always tempting for people to blame this sort of thing on "dumb people" whilst congratulating themselves on spotting the trick, but the reality of modern life is that people are in a hurry and have been trained (mostly by lawyers) to expect that 90% of words on official documents are worthless and also trained (mostly by computers) to expect highly intuitive user interfaces that don't require much effort to use. I work in software and this is a really hard and frustrating lesson to learn, but the most obvious/common/intuitive interpretation of what the user sees in front of them is expected to be the correct one, and when it isn't people get upset and blame the developer. You can put words on screen explaining what's different: doesn't matter, nearly 100% of people won't read them. Dumb, smart, young, old, fast readers, slow readers, it's all irrelevant. People make the minimum effort they think they can get away with to interpret written data, and if that initial interpretation is wrong then, well, you'd better hope your users aren't doing anything too important.
A properly designed bus timetable puts day exceptions next to the times themselves even if that takes more space. At minimum, stops with exceptions need an asterisk next to them and should have a different background color. Putting the critical information very far from where the eye will naturally expect to find it is just bad design.
You are talking nonsense. The problem was not about designing the best bus table that could be read with zero effort by the majority of the population.
The problem was precisely about sorting people between those who could pay attention and use logic to correctly determine timing for a non-obvious case and whose who could not (or couldn't be bothered to read the whole thing, and check everything, which for this intent is basically the same thing).
You, not understanding why this was chosen as a question and pretending like if it is not a very common occurrence in our modern world is just asking to be called stupid.
OK, so rename the test the "trick questions test", tell people the test will be full of stupid scenarios designed to trip them up, and see how much scores improve?
But this is basically what is done to sort through people in math education and the likes to clear a level that is necessary to attain higher education (and potentially better jobs/incomes).
The score will not improve at all no matter how you call the thing, the fact is the use of non-obvious logic is really limited to a small part of the population.
It may not be obvious because the dumber part of the population imitates the brighter part, trying to get the same benefits. It works most of the time, but since they are not actually thinking for themselves, it sometimes creates problems and it makes them unable to really solve this type of simple problem.
You can't imagine how much I have been asked about extremely trivial timetable questions even by people I don't know; it's extremely frequent even in countries where people don't speak my mother tongue. On the other hand, I have never ever needed to ask anyone about anything unless something was delayed or had an incident...
Testing how well people deal with other people's design screwups might have some very weak connection to intelligence, but it's not a good test, no more than it would be sensible for me to declare that anyone who struggles to operate a UNIX command line lacks intelligence. Some things are just not designed to be user-friendly. With sufficient effort, intelligence and quantity of battle scars you may get better at dealing with other people's design screwups but I will never consider this to be a test of real intelligence, partly because anyone with that attitude in software can never make good products.
It’s not really a design screwup it’s just part of the complexity of the problem.
The UNIX command line is not really complicated to operate for anyone smart enough to actually read and understand the manual, there is nothing that should cause struggle.
It’s just that when you understand what it does you intuitively understand that it is rather pointless in a world where GUIs have been invented and you can rely on the works of other people who built software to do the same things with less effort (no command to remember and as you go learning with tooltips or visual manuals/documentation).
If you understand the conceptual necessity of the software and what you are trying to achieve it doesn’t really matter if it’s a UNIX CLI or a GUI, it’s just that the CLI will require more effort without much benefit so most people would rather not use that (rightfully).
I don’t understand where you are trying to go.
No matter how you designed your timetable, a significant part of the population is not going to get it.
I have actually designed different way of displaying opening hours schedules and nothing works better, you always get the same people asking when it’s open no matter how you present the information. The only thing that reliably works is telling if it’s open right now with the use of modern technology.
But I do agree with you that information design does matter, for the ones who will actually use it. You can make their task much easier by laying it out better so they can process it more efficiently.
Don’t you remember school when you had to study a document and extract some trivial information yet at least half the class wouldn’t get it for some reason ?
Well the reason is pretty simple: because they couldn’t understand.
The sad part is that schools have put a lot more focus on hard work and rot learning became more desirable than proper understanding, so now those people have degrees and run things; which is why we run into all kinds of problems. Particularly in place where competitive selection is rather low, like government jobs, or teachers positions (at least in my country).
Am I unusual in believing that John von Neumann was more valuable than I am? I would expect a substantial portion of people who are familiar with his body of work to answer similarly.
I honestly can't think of anything worse than a group of people convinced they are "smart" pontificating on how society ought to be organised who have zero wisdom or actual life SKILLS
I agree that brilliant people fail spectacularly when they do but it’s kind of expected.
Think about a brilliant skateboarder who makes insane tricks, he is very likely to crush his bones, but the average skateboarder just doing the easy stuff isn’t as likely to get such a big problem. Yet nobody cares about the average one, he isn’t pushing the boundaries of the sports/physics, it’s not interesting.
The potential of massive failure is basically part of the deal and the potential payout makes it worth the risk.
Also since we are talking about people you have to consider the aggregate, and yes in aggregate you will do far better being led by smarter people even if sometimes there are going to be terrible fails.
Covid 19 problems are precisely related to political choices not made by smart people but actually directed by women’s choices (boomers, feminists and the likes) because it was chosen potential “security” (at least perceived) at all costs (especially at the expense of the youth).
It’s funny you say that because I think it highlights what happens when you get into a system where mediocrity dominates by the laws of averages: poor outcomes, not too bad because risk was mitigated but also barely enough to keep going. Overtime you destroy your foundation, which is basically what is happening worldwide now…
I'm not familiar with the controversies around him but we do have similar things going on in France. I don't think it's worth spending too much time on that since there is not much to be gained in this truth in my opinion.
I believe everything about Covid was not handled rationally because people always fear dying and if they can they would rather have anyone else but them die (even when they have already had a whole good life).
As far as I am concerned the people who dies from Covid would have died from something else rather sooner than later but we stoped the whole world trying to protect the very few who were actually at risk at the expense of everyone else. It seems that it is basically not worse than influenza over time but politicians acted on fears to make it look like they were doing something.
The logical truth is that it was impossible to stop the spread and you could either handle the thing right there or make all kinds of stupid rules trying to stop it when it clearly would never work. A lot like trying to stop a forest fire with a garden hose.
As for masks and vaccines the scientific evidence is in favor of them of course but the political responses were made because nobody was ready, so they had to tell some lies to keep people calm while they were working on the stuff. Masks in particular highlighted the overreliance on foreign manufacturing and the grave dangers of leaving industrialisations to foreign countries.
But China had those and instated all kind of rules trying to block it and they didn't fare much better in the long term; it actually came back to kick them in the ass later than everyone else. They actually paid twice. I guess this is what you get when you are led by authoritarian authorities that are even less rational than the already discutable democracies (they need to keep the illusion of holding the single truth).
Well, if you are looking for objective truth you pretty much have to.
I don't even care about the culture part, in some ways it's not all bad. But the reality is that if your society does not successfully reproduce it is going to extinction over time, which is basically what is happening.
In particular, related to the original post, in preference you would rather have some types of people reproduce over some others. Because some have inherently more worth to society than others even though we pretend otherwise in our ideologically egalitarian societies.
And from my anecdotal experience, the people around my age who actually have children are really not the brightest ones; on the other hand, I know a lot that would make more desirable children but they are all chasing career, money, power and there is no plan B since the biological clock is already ahead.
Personally, I believe that it is actually the biggest problem we face today and matters much more than everything else because if you can't keep your society alive, it really doesn't matter much what you do in every other area.
But for some reasons, some seem to be convinced that relying on immigration of a vastly different genetic heritage is the answer, as if they won't reproduce the existing problems of their origins.
It seems everyone has drunk Kool-Aid on the merit of education and the likes. We still carefully select dog breeds and cows but most won't make a logical conclusion because it would be politically incorrect to apply this principle to humans.
Thanks for writing this response. I think we agree about a lot, while emphasising different things. I want to emphasise that intelligence is only one contributor to moral worth, which can be outweighed by other considerations. I also want to emphasise that there's nothing special about intelligence. For example, one could write similar articles on why people with higher conscientiousness or pro-sociality have greater moral worth. Meanwhile, you want to emphasise that intelligence is an important contributor to moral worth, and we shouldn't downplay that.
The idea that there's "nothing special about intelligence" is something I would disagree with. Intelligence *is* what makes us special. It's also the basis of virtually everything else that's valuable (intrinsically or instrumentally). Prosociality might be the only other trait that you could argue is comparable in importance to intelligence. But while I think that, all else being equal, more intelligence is better, I don't think that's true of prosociality. Pathological altruism isn't desirable. A psychopath like Imre Lakatos was more valuable than an average do-gooder. Traits like conscientiousness may have little or no intrinsic value at all.
Okay, so we don't agree entirely. Surely in any species whose members cooperate, harder-working individuals are more valuable? The highly intelligent alcoholic is surely less valuable than the individual of moderate intelligence who works hard to support his family. And even if you're right that more pro-sociality isn't always better, one could simply specify that intelligence has a monotonic relationship with moral worth, while pro-sociality has a non-monotonic relationship. It would still be true that, for many comparisons of individuals with different levels of pro-sociality, the one with higher pro-sociality would have greater moral worth – all else being equal.
An alcoholic, especially an intelligent one, may accomplish quite a bit. Few are drunk all the time. True such an individual would accomplish more if he didn’t drink.
But how can you know it to be necessarily true? What if alcohol usage boosts some people's creativity and then they remember ideas they had when they're sober or what if the periodic usage even increases their creativity when their sober? While for some people its the opposite. And for others it nothing. And for others its something else. I've met so many people that don't fit into any the of the bins that author's like the one who writes this page have (and yes, I know he does this for an income source and his personal opinions are probably far more nuanced and deeper) fitted. Broad sweeping generalizations on topics such as this are typically wrong, and any one detailed plan to implement across all of humanity for something like this is likely to be extremely ill conceived.
As the daughter of an alcoholic I’m afraid I’m unable to see anything positive about the condition.
Perhaps you have had a different experience.
I'm sorry to read about your daughter's condition, I hope I didn't inadvertently offend with my comment due to my ignorance of the matter.
Yes, I have encountered many different kinds of people, good and ill, many of whom smart in various ways or creative in various ways, and some who had the rare mixture of both; and across these groups I've met people for whom the effects are the effects are different. And I've met enough to feel that I can say with a reasonably high degree of confidence that there is indeed variability.
That entirely depends on your definition of work and what can actually be considered as desirable work.
I tend to think it is one problem of our modern civilization, where many do work for the sake of work, of more correctly, they do work to get money to buy stuff they don't really need but give them a more desirable position in the social ladder/order (status).
But that's only at the surface level, in practice their individual worth doesn't change much, and soon enough they figure out they became desirable only for their accumulation of wealth and it rarely ends well for them (in a psychological way).
I tend to think it is actually much harder to not do anything and it is extremely hard for people to figure out where they should be focusing their ressource on (work time included).
"Hard work is inherently good" tends to be the dogma of our current society (comes from Christianism as fas a I can tell) but it becomes more and more questionnable if that is actually reasonable.
We are now dealing with many problems created by having too many people working hard to consume yet more stuff.
Poverty has almost disappeared in theory but in practice inequalities have never been worse so it is basically the same but with less material struggle.
So, I think you ought to look beyond appearances and I don't think you could find any intelligent person not doing any kind of work anyway.
And they are much more valuable because of how they multiply the work output, you can readily observe this when a similar task is given to 2 individuals of different intelligence: I can guarantee you that the more intelligent one will figure out a way to do it better, faster and potentially with less ressources.
"But while I think that, all else being equal, more intelligence is better, I don't think that's true of prosociality."
So among two equally psychopathic/anti-social individuals, you would prefer the intelligent one over the dull one? You don't realize that the harmful externalities of the dull psychopath are much more likely to be self-contained than that of the intelligent psychopath, who can oversee the immiseration and murder of millions of people? By simply opening a history book, you would understand that not a single century has gone by without this "extreme edge case" playing out.
Additionally, the only reason higher prosociality stops being positive at the right tail is because of the more antisocial individuals or groups who may try to exploit their goodwill. That does not mean that high prosociality is inherently bad. Rather, it's a strong negative indictment of human antisociality, that it may imperil the lives of the few saints the world desperately needs and is in short supply of.
All else being equal, between a more prosocial human race and a more intelligent human race I would 100% choose the more prosocial human race. The human experience would simply be much more pleasant with the former.
I would argue that the human capacity for symbolic thought was the precursor to abstract intelligence & it's that that made us unique.
Clearly, the idea of morality is a human universal which is finessed by genetic relatedness not group selection?
I'm confused about what your overall point is. Is this an argument for top down social engineering over the invisible hand of evolution?
All things are not equal and variation is the engine of evolution. We cannot predict which individuals will be of higher value to the collective IQ of a society however - if we were into social engineering - and true genius is impossible to predict.
Aren't universal moral laws ultimate adaptations to protect kith and kin which are then proximately rationalised? Both discovered in human nature and then individually posited? Anyone?
Right? Exactly. I just saw a Triggernometry ep where KK was questioning Cofnas: "So you just want LESS DEI"? Cofnas said no. When talking about Meritocracy v Representation KK asked Cofnas multiple times why not 100% "Meritocracy"? Cofnas refused to go there, and it was genuinely baffling (esp wrt his hereditarian position). Cofnas kinda said it would not be accepted, said there needs to be some Representation. The episode was ending and I don't subscribe to be aware of what may have been said said in the members only discussion.
Since many people specifically deny that intelligence correlates with human worth, in whatever sense, it makes sense to forcefully argue that this trait in particular does correlate with worth. I think the most obvious (negative) correlate is bad, violent behavior. So when I make this kind of argument, I begin with that one. No one thinks that we should save a murderer over a child if forced to choose.
"No one thinks that we should save a murderer over a child if forced to choose"
But many people do think this. It happens in war, genocide, anywhere that certain people have an opportunity to get away with it. If the culture allows, the psychopaths rise. That's the dilemma.
Wouldn't it rather be what one does with that intelligence? Which would include different traits/variables. Or are we saying just intelligence alone (how much intelligence - 1 or 2 standard deviations?) is statistically significant?
Where does wisdom come into it?
Eugenio Proto's study says intelligent people are socially competent. If moral worth is conditional on favourable social traits, then intelligent people are morally superior
I consider myself a fairly cultured recluse if somewhat middle brow who much prefers her own company with the exception of a few long term very close friends - I do not like being among crowds at all and hate large noisy social events. I do not consider myself socially competent - I hate small talk.
Does this mean I am of low intelligence or just introverted?
What's intelligent here? Average IQ, or 1/2/3 sd's over? Many of our most intelligent people are on the autism spectrum, noted for the symptom of social disfunction.
Depends how intelligent you are. At a certain level it becomes extremely hard to socialize with average people.
For every smart person that uses their intelligence for ill there are more that use it for good. Do you not think there are sociopaths in the ghetto?
Wonderful post. I always like it when someone points to something I've always taken for granted but perhaps shouldn't have. Such things remain invisible to me until someone, in this case you, point them out.
Incidentally, why has average Japanese IQ gone up in the last decades?
The Flynn effect refers to the large increase in IQ scores across the world in the 20th century. It was probably driven mostly by education, and to a lesser extent by better nutrition and medical care.
Ah, I see. I was thinking of Ed Dutton's idea that in the West we have been getting, on average, stupider since the Industrial Revolution due to the fact that pretty much everyone nowadays survives, rather than just the healthiest, and therefore the most intelligent, since health and intelligence are correlated. I was wondering how Japan had bucked that dysgenic trend but maybe I was conflating intelligence with IQ scores. Or maybe Ed Dutton is simply wrong.
In defense of Murray and Carl:
1) Nathan rejects moral realism in favor of the idea that morality is socially determined. He then moves on to a discussion of "human worth" without answering the charge that intelligence has no "moral worth"; I think implicitly Nathan concedes that since the median person thinks intelligence has no "moral worth" and morality is socially determined, then intelligence has no "moral worth." So we need to chalk that one up as a win for Murray and Carl.
2A) In order to operationalize the notion of "human worth," Nathan splits his definition into intrinsic and instrumental components. Part of the intrinsic component is "our superior capacity to understand, contemplate, plan, have an identity, and (as Kershnar highlights) exercise autonomy." This is just transparently begging the question! I suppose one way to win a debate about whether intelligence contributes to human worth is to just say "I (and least one other person) personally define human worth as intelligence," but it's not convincing, and in this case defies common usage.
2B) The argument is further confused because the only defense of the definition that intelligence makes humans more intrinsically valuable, we have, "The more intelligence you have, the greater your potential to manifest what is intrinsically valuable." But this is transparently only a defense of why intelligence is *instrumentally* valuable, not intrinsically valuable!
2C) If, as Nathan believes, there is no such thing as mind-independent "moral worth," there is probably no such thing as mind-independent "human worth." Nathan agrees that there is "no objective standard that tells us how to weigh different values." So we return to the subjective, which again favors Murray and Carl.
I borrow the illustrative example of the drowning people: as Nathan notes, commonsense morality says to save women, children, and parents in different scenarios, the imperative action implictly revealing their greater (subejctive) "human worth." But there is no commonsense morality rule that says to save the smarter person. Nathan simply posits that it "should" be part of our calculation. But if the way to determine human worth is subjective and not mind-independent, and the median person does not include intelligence as part of her calculation, then intelligence is not a component of "human worth."
3) I think the argument that intelligence instrumentally contributes to human worth is unassailable, but this does not imply intelligence actually *is* a component of human worth. To illustrate, suppose you come home and discover the cure for cancer taped to your refridgerator, which you excitedly share with the world. By sharing the cure and not throwing it away, you have contributed more to human welfare than any single person in history. But did possession of the cure, in and of itself, contribute to your human worth? Did it make you superior in any way? No, the only thing that made you a worthy human was the choice to share it with the world. Simply possessing the cure is certainly *instrumentally* valuable, but it does not contribute to your "human worth", in the way we would typically think about it.
Therefore, I argue that possessing something that is *instrumentally* valuable does not add to human worth unless you took actions to obtain it. Since there are basically no actions you can take to improve your general intelligence (dual n-back training?), general intelligence does not make you more worthy as a human.
Love you Nathan, but I disagree with your reasoning.
PS I agree most with the concluding message: "You were born into the natural aristocracy. You have an obligation to strive for the greatness of which you are capable." But this is not a repudiation of Christian morality, but a restatement! Jesus famously said, "To whom much is given, much will be required" (Luke 12:48). The Parable of the Talents illustrates the idea of people possessing different endowments. Saint Peter and the Apostle Paul emphasize using "gifts that differ according to the grace given to us" (Romans 12:6). The Christian notion is that inequality is natural, but each person is expected to make the most of what they have been given.
Yes -- your "PS " is important here, because it highlights one of the biggest misunderstandings afoot today -- I find it everywhere from the far left to the far right and points inbetween -- namely: that Christianity is egalitarianism. Originally, historically, it was precisely the opposite.
I think the problem here stems from the idea of *individual* moral worth.
Individual moral decisions have a way of netting each other out in large groups over long time periods. For every villain there is a hero. For everyone that uses their intelligence for evil there is one that uses it for good. For every high IQ society that goes crazy during WWII we have a post war economic miracle.
Low IQ societies by contrast just can't keep the lights on, whatever heroes or villains there might be within.
Most of the benefits (or detriments) or intelligence come from *Hive Mind*. It's the high IQ society we are striving for. That will assure that we tend to have more heroes then villains and that we tend to have more prosperous outcomes then not.
Another way of looking at it would be Gregory Clark's "The Son Also Rises". He notes that while smart families often have bad individuals within them, as an extended family unit they tend to have high value on average.
You don't deny a low IQ person citizenship because you have some complex understanding of their individual moral worth. You just know that letting in lots of low IQ people is bad for society, and that since you can't look into the soul of every applicant and all their descendants you just have to judge as a group based on broad criteria.
Charles is naturally approaching this from the libertarian individualistic perspective. It's not individual outcomes and individual morality we are debating though, but the statistical inevitabilities from large n-counts with certain characteristics.
"For every high IQ society that goes crazy during WWII". You're saying this from a position of not contemplating that you or your family could be such flotsam.
I would rather be born in 1940 Japan as an average Japanese than 1940 Congo as an average Congolese.
Well, there are plenty of other choices. You picked two strange ones. The Japanese at this time had been brainwashed for two generations to hate the Chinese and think it was their God given right to seize territory and commit atrocities carte blanche. They joined the Rome-Berlin axis to form the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo axis and used their youth literally as cannon fodder in the kamikaze. The Congo was a colony of Belgium in 1940 (The Belgian Congo) and was, like Belgium, neutral. It only became independent in 1960. By any standard, the Belgian Congo was a safer place to be in 1940 compared to Japan who was soon to have two atomic bombs dropped on it and surrender to the allies. Japan's high IQ (if it had it at the time) was no barrier to it being utterly stupid.
I picked an example of one of the worst times and places for a high IQ society and compared it to a low IQ society that wasn't involved in WWII.
Whatever troubles Japanese had to suffer through in the 1940s, they would soon become a first world country where people live comfortable fulfilling lives. Meanwhile, the Congo remained a third world hellhole.
High IQ societies retain the potential for improvement, and most manage to get there in time. Low IQ societies have no potential, they can never improve and their standard of living relies entirely on how much high IQ societies are willing to pay for their natural resources or tourist beaches and they usually squander what little they get from that.
“Yet, when it comes to “human worth,” in my view, Motz ranks among the elites. He is far superior to Chris Langan—the conspiracy theorist and philosophy crackpot who supposedly has the highest IQ in the world.”
Or perhaps you are within one SD of Motz’s IQ, which makes him comprehensible to you, whereas Langen seems like a “crackpot” much like you’d seem like a crackpot to, say, the 77% who can’t read a bus schedule.
Just a thought.
I still don't get that "it's wrong to shoot random people for fun" is a truth of logic. It is a claim about what is morally right, and what is morally right is not a truth of logic, unless you are some kind of strong realist in the Platonic sense.
If you reread it you'll see that is the point he was making.
It wasn't said very clearly, but basically it was:
Moral realism is the belief that moral claims are logically true.
But I don't believe in moral realism.
This conundrum over the moral worth of people is perhaps why we got the "scientific" consensus that there are no important differences between groups and the denial about the heritability of intelligence. After the horrors of the second world war, it was easier to just lie and say that all groups are exactly the same in all socially valuable traits, and that education can increase intelligence rather than tackle an issue with no easy answer, especially when the religious foundations for belief in equal human worth were quickly vanishing.
Prominent intellectuals who are normally curious about most things suddenly become very disinterested or scientifically illiterate when the discussion turns to intelligence differences, and especially groups differences. In my opinion that is because they party because don't have an answer to the question of whether smart people are superior that is palatable to them.
We should remember though that high intelligence is a trait that is advantageous in our CURRENT post-industrial environment, but environments change. AI may prove to be much more competent than humans at cognitively demanding tasks, and available to anyone with a smartphone, thus rendering that advantage moot. The future environment may reward other traits instead of intelligence (beauty, sense of humor, work ethic). Perhaps in a few years I will be unemployed and my plumber will be making a fortune.
The only WW2 combatant that denied genetic intelligence difference was Stalin. This denial did nothing to limit his murdering.
Even the most famous example, Hitler, didn’t actually know much about intelligence (or much else). It’s not clear that the Nazies even prized intelligence all that much. The Nazi eugenics programs didn’t mention intelligence outside the elimination of clinically retarded individuals, where is was one among many disabilities. The ideal Nazi man doesn’t appear to emphasize intelligence in any way. If anything within the Volk Nazi-ism took on a rather egalitarian nature that valorized the average man quite a bit. The nazies didn’t say that intelligent Germans were “worth” more then less intelligent Germans.
P.S. if you ever became unemployed due to AI you would simply learn to become a plumber and probably outcompete your current plumber. Smart people can learn to do plumbing, it’s not rocket science.
A provocative argument. I’m new to this debate, but think Carl has the stronger case.
It seems like you’re essentially equating worth with accomplishment. Yes, smarter people can get things done better, in the current environment. Yet, just a few thousand years ago, physical fitness mattered much more than it does now, and I wonder how many of the geniuses you cited would have been able to even survive. There’s probably a threshold level of intelligence to thrive regardless of circumstances, but I bet it’s not very far above the mean.
And you didn’t really refute the notion that “accomplishment” can be good (life-saving medicine) or bad (concentration camps). I’m interested to read the book about national IQ differences you referenced. Japan went from kamikaze pilots and the rape of Nanking to its current state of prosperity and peacefulness apparently without any changes to the country’s average IQ. China is one of the most oppressive regimes out there but has a higher average IQ. And I certainly wouldn’t want to live in Belarus, also above average. Again, countries may need a threshold level of average intelligence as a pre-condition for national success, but it doesn’t look sufficient.
I wrote: "Part of what makes humans more intrinsically valuable than other animals is our superior capacity to understand, contemplate, plan, have an identity, and (as Kershnar highlights) exercise autonomy....There can even be greatness in failure." I don't see how this is, as you say, "essentially equating worth with accomplishment."
"And you didn’t really refute the notion that 'accomplishment' can be good (life-saving medicine) or bad (concentration camps)." - I don't "refute" this because there's nothing to refute. As I say, "Any instrument can be used for bad purposes."
Incidentally, the average IQ of Japan has increased substantially over the past several decades. More important, IQ is not the only relevant factor. Communism --> bad outcomes. Check out Garett Jones's book Hive Mind.
Do we have a superior capacity to understand, contemplate & plan than other animals? Identify is tricky, as is autonomy. Do we understand them sufficiently?
I'm more leaning towards our capacity for symbolic thought is the most unique element of human abstract intelligence, which leads to all other higher cognitive functions.
Very few nonhuman animals can recognize themselves in a mirror. Learning how to chew the bark off a twig and stick it in a termite mound pushes chimpanzee intelligence to the limit. Of course we can never know for sure what goes on in the mind of an animal. But I think it's clear that the capacity of the *average* human to have an identity, understand, contemplate, and plan is qualitatively different from, and superior to, that of any other species.
Sure, but these things are not unique to humans they are just on a scale. A symbolic module is and, arguably, is the precursor to all the above.
Thanks for responding. How is there ever greatness in failure? Usually, it's failure on the path to accomplishment, i.e. a mistake that leads to a discovery or lesson. That's not failure.
I think theism and deontology need to be addressed in a non-trivial way to make your argument more broadly persuasive.
It seems that you're arguing that intelligence makes someone more valuable because they have a higher probability of doing valuable things (being moral, contributing to society, etc...); however, as Noah Carl writes, intelligence is only one contributor to moral worth, as, for example, someone with high intelligence but no altruism is pretty harmful. So I think that the only way to conceptualize someone's worth is by taking in all the relevant factors, rather than just prizing intelligence.
Also, it should be noted that highly intelligent people could often be considered extremely harmful/unvaluable under different frameworks. For example, you note that Einstein had high human worth because he possessed and then used his intelligence to make great discoveries in physics. Yet his thinking is responsible for the creation of the atomic bomb, whereas an ordinary human is not culpable in that way. By these standards, then, Einstein is a human of low worth.
>“Moral worth correlates with intelligence (and other traits).” Kershnar argues that “intrinsic moral value is proportional to autonomy,” which in turn is “proportional to intelligence.” I claim: “Less intelligent people are inferior...in some respect. Everyone has ‘human dignity’, but if two people are drowning and I can save one I’d consider relative intelligence (among other things).”
I can see smart people holding to this self-serving philosophy until machines substantially outstrip them in intelligence. Then, instead of surrendering their superior moral worth to machines, they’ll elevate some other quality machines lack to be the key marker of moral worth.
I ‘ve never noticed smarter people being more ethical than less intelligent people. They are, however, far better at concealing/normalizing their corrupt behavior.
>In my view, moral realism is an illusion. Our intuitions about right and wrong are the product of morally blind evolutionary and cultural forces.
But moral realism only says that Moral truths exist, not that out intuitions are reliable.
>The institution of morality, when stripped of illusions, serves a useful function.
OK. But it's quite plausible that treating people as being of equal worth serves a useful function -- for instance, they are more likely to act co-operatively if they have guarantees that they are not going to be thrown under the bus a as worthless person.
>“equal under the law” (a tautology),
Obviously not, since explicitly unequal systems used to exist. Romans slaves could be legally tortured, citizens not. British aristocrats could only be convicted by their "peers" -- other aristocrats. Etc, etc.
But... it literally tells you it will be an hour between busses on Saturday?
Are people skipping to the section and going straight to the times without reading? Did I miss something? Surely I'm missing something, there's no way nearly 8 out of 10 people can't get this right.
I think I'll feel better if I got it wrong too and it isn't actually that simple.
Yes that's what they are doing, and it's rational to do so. I'm sure 80% of people get it wrong and no that doesn't mean they are dumb or don't know how to use a bus timetable.
It's not smart of Cofnas to present this test question as if it says something profound about the distribution of intelligence. In fact all it says is that whoever designed the bus schedule is crap at their job (probably a government employee...), and whoever selected this question for NALS didn't do a great job either, and most people are not expecting to have to interpret such a badly designed timetable.
The most obvious and intuitive way to interpret this schedule is that you will have to wait half an hour. If you pay close attention to the question, AND read the excessively verbose fine print at the top AND/OR read the extra information at the very opposite end of the page after successfully ignoring all the other irrelevant data that scan forces on you, then you will notice that the bus in half an hour doesn't run on Saturday and therefore you'll actually have to wait an hour. Almost certainly the reason so many people fail is not that they can't "reliably" read bus timetables (Cofnas' absurd interpretation) but that they say the answer is 30 minutes.
It's always tempting for people to blame this sort of thing on "dumb people" whilst congratulating themselves on spotting the trick, but the reality of modern life is that people are in a hurry and have been trained (mostly by lawyers) to expect that 90% of words on official documents are worthless and also trained (mostly by computers) to expect highly intuitive user interfaces that don't require much effort to use. I work in software and this is a really hard and frustrating lesson to learn, but the most obvious/common/intuitive interpretation of what the user sees in front of them is expected to be the correct one, and when it isn't people get upset and blame the developer. You can put words on screen explaining what's different: doesn't matter, nearly 100% of people won't read them. Dumb, smart, young, old, fast readers, slow readers, it's all irrelevant. People make the minimum effort they think they can get away with to interpret written data, and if that initial interpretation is wrong then, well, you'd better hope your users aren't doing anything too important.
A properly designed bus timetable puts day exceptions next to the times themselves even if that takes more space. At minimum, stops with exceptions need an asterisk next to them and should have a different background color. Putting the critical information very far from where the eye will naturally expect to find it is just bad design.
You are talking nonsense. The problem was not about designing the best bus table that could be read with zero effort by the majority of the population.
The problem was precisely about sorting people between those who could pay attention and use logic to correctly determine timing for a non-obvious case and whose who could not (or couldn't be bothered to read the whole thing, and check everything, which for this intent is basically the same thing).
You, not understanding why this was chosen as a question and pretending like if it is not a very common occurrence in our modern world is just asking to be called stupid.
OK, so rename the test the "trick questions test", tell people the test will be full of stupid scenarios designed to trip them up, and see how much scores improve?
You can call it however you want.
But this is basically what is done to sort through people in math education and the likes to clear a level that is necessary to attain higher education (and potentially better jobs/incomes).
The score will not improve at all no matter how you call the thing, the fact is the use of non-obvious logic is really limited to a small part of the population.
It may not be obvious because the dumber part of the population imitates the brighter part, trying to get the same benefits. It works most of the time, but since they are not actually thinking for themselves, it sometimes creates problems and it makes them unable to really solve this type of simple problem.
You can't imagine how much I have been asked about extremely trivial timetable questions even by people I don't know; it's extremely frequent even in countries where people don't speak my mother tongue. On the other hand, I have never ever needed to ask anyone about anything unless something was delayed or had an incident...
Testing how well people deal with other people's design screwups might have some very weak connection to intelligence, but it's not a good test, no more than it would be sensible for me to declare that anyone who struggles to operate a UNIX command line lacks intelligence. Some things are just not designed to be user-friendly. With sufficient effort, intelligence and quantity of battle scars you may get better at dealing with other people's design screwups but I will never consider this to be a test of real intelligence, partly because anyone with that attitude in software can never make good products.
It’s not really a design screwup it’s just part of the complexity of the problem.
The UNIX command line is not really complicated to operate for anyone smart enough to actually read and understand the manual, there is nothing that should cause struggle.
It’s just that when you understand what it does you intuitively understand that it is rather pointless in a world where GUIs have been invented and you can rely on the works of other people who built software to do the same things with less effort (no command to remember and as you go learning with tooltips or visual manuals/documentation).
If you understand the conceptual necessity of the software and what you are trying to achieve it doesn’t really matter if it’s a UNIX CLI or a GUI, it’s just that the CLI will require more effort without much benefit so most people would rather not use that (rightfully).
I don’t understand where you are trying to go.
No matter how you designed your timetable, a significant part of the population is not going to get it.
I have actually designed different way of displaying opening hours schedules and nothing works better, you always get the same people asking when it’s open no matter how you present the information. The only thing that reliably works is telling if it’s open right now with the use of modern technology.
But I do agree with you that information design does matter, for the ones who will actually use it. You can make their task much easier by laying it out better so they can process it more efficiently.
Don’t you remember school when you had to study a document and extract some trivial information yet at least half the class wouldn’t get it for some reason ?
Well the reason is pretty simple: because they couldn’t understand.
The sad part is that schools have put a lot more focus on hard work and rot learning became more desirable than proper understanding, so now those people have degrees and run things; which is why we run into all kinds of problems. Particularly in place where competitive selection is rather low, like government jobs, or teachers positions (at least in my country).
The high-IQ bubble you live in is a wonderful thing. The left side of the bell curve is a graveyard for most political ideologies.
Am I unusual in believing that John von Neumann was more valuable than I am? I would expect a substantial portion of people who are familiar with his body of work to answer similarly.
I honestly can't think of anything worse than a group of people convinced they are "smart" pontificating on how society ought to be organised who have zero wisdom or actual life SKILLS
You are basically saying that an architect cannot do good work if he doesn't have the skills of a mason.
That's proper nonsense, I hope you understand that at some point.
lol. I'm not saying that at all. Are you Cathy Newman?
I was riffing on Thomas Sowell: "Stupid people can cause problems, but it usually takes brilliant people to create a real catastrophe.”
Case in point? Covid 19.
I don’t know Cathy Newman, what’s the relation ?
I agree that brilliant people fail spectacularly when they do but it’s kind of expected.
Think about a brilliant skateboarder who makes insane tricks, he is very likely to crush his bones, but the average skateboarder just doing the easy stuff isn’t as likely to get such a big problem. Yet nobody cares about the average one, he isn’t pushing the boundaries of the sports/physics, it’s not interesting.
The potential of massive failure is basically part of the deal and the potential payout makes it worth the risk.
Also since we are talking about people you have to consider the aggregate, and yes in aggregate you will do far better being led by smarter people even if sometimes there are going to be terrible fails.
Covid 19 problems are precisely related to political choices not made by smart people but actually directed by women’s choices (boomers, feminists and the likes) because it was chosen potential “security” (at least perceived) at all costs (especially at the expense of the youth).
It’s funny you say that because I think it highlights what happens when you get into a system where mediocrity dominates by the laws of averages: poor outcomes, not too bad because risk was mitigated but also barely enough to keep going. Overtime you destroy your foundation, which is basically what is happening worldwide now…
I'm talking about the covid research. I'm talking about Fauci who was head of that research.
I'm not familiar with the controversies around him but we do have similar things going on in France. I don't think it's worth spending too much time on that since there is not much to be gained in this truth in my opinion.
I believe everything about Covid was not handled rationally because people always fear dying and if they can they would rather have anyone else but them die (even when they have already had a whole good life).
As far as I am concerned the people who dies from Covid would have died from something else rather sooner than later but we stoped the whole world trying to protect the very few who were actually at risk at the expense of everyone else. It seems that it is basically not worse than influenza over time but politicians acted on fears to make it look like they were doing something.
The logical truth is that it was impossible to stop the spread and you could either handle the thing right there or make all kinds of stupid rules trying to stop it when it clearly would never work. A lot like trying to stop a forest fire with a garden hose.
As for masks and vaccines the scientific evidence is in favor of them of course but the political responses were made because nobody was ready, so they had to tell some lies to keep people calm while they were working on the stuff. Masks in particular highlighted the overreliance on foreign manufacturing and the grave dangers of leaving industrialisations to foreign countries.
But China had those and instated all kind of rules trying to block it and they didn't fare much better in the long term; it actually came back to kick them in the ass later than everyone else. They actually paid twice. I guess this is what you get when you are led by authoritarian authorities that are even less rational than the already discutable democracies (they need to keep the illusion of holding the single truth).
& I'm well equated with the feminisation of culture. https://paulawright.substack.com/p/bankrupting-the-patriarchy-part-2
Well, if you are looking for objective truth you pretty much have to.
I don't even care about the culture part, in some ways it's not all bad. But the reality is that if your society does not successfully reproduce it is going to extinction over time, which is basically what is happening.
In particular, related to the original post, in preference you would rather have some types of people reproduce over some others. Because some have inherently more worth to society than others even though we pretend otherwise in our ideologically egalitarian societies.
And from my anecdotal experience, the people around my age who actually have children are really not the brightest ones; on the other hand, I know a lot that would make more desirable children but they are all chasing career, money, power and there is no plan B since the biological clock is already ahead.
Personally, I believe that it is actually the biggest problem we face today and matters much more than everything else because if you can't keep your society alive, it really doesn't matter much what you do in every other area.
But for some reasons, some seem to be convinced that relying on immigration of a vastly different genetic heritage is the answer, as if they won't reproduce the existing problems of their origins.
It seems everyone has drunk Kool-Aid on the merit of education and the likes. We still carefully select dog breeds and cows but most won't make a logical conclusion because it would be politically incorrect to apply this principle to humans.